I was going to ask you all these questions about church, vision, the gospel – but since you came to speak at Tearfund I’ve got to ask this: what’s your favourite Eddie Izzard quote?
RB - The cake or death section. Death or cake. Cake or death. Sure.
Who else has influenced or led you to be where you are today?
RB - A woman who lives in my city, a sister of Notre Dame, and a teacher who lives in Ohio, Dwight Bryer, he has deeply influenced me – there’s a long list there. Wisdom. I crave wisdom, these days I’m more and more appreciative of people who’ve seen a lot and done a lot, got wisdom, a certain grounding that they’re still standing and there’s a certain ability to speak the truth that comes from that that I find very compelling.
How do you feel now that you are in a position of influencing other people yourself? Do you feel prepared for that role?
RB - All I can sort out is that influence is currency and so you have a responsibility to spend it well. Apparently people are listening, so the better questions are what are they going to hear? If there’s a spotlight and its shining then who will I be standing next to that people will see who would never otherwise have been seen? Then I go way back to the compelling question of the scriptures which is how will those who have the voice, the influence, the wealth, the skill – will they use it to further their own empire or to empower those who are under the empire and have no wealth and have no voice? I’m interested in how I can alert people to the large issues of our day, to the great causes that desperately need masses of people to tackle.
What are those main issues that you feel you can influence yourself or call other people to tackle?
RB - Well, there is enough food in the world, the issue is distribution as you all know. There is enough water, it’s just proper use by those who have it and proper distribution. Never before have we had this kind of massive gap between the haves and have-nots, and never before have we had the kind of resources in the west, and technology, innovation and ingenuity to actually tackle these issues. So the world is an emergency and it’s not like we don’t have what we need to fix it. And obviously history will judge us, so I feel compelled to make a lot of noise about such things (laughs).
That’s why you’re here today! Do you think there is a change that is happening – or that is needed – in the way that the church reacts to these issues of injustice?
RB - Well it’s thrilling. All around I’m meeting people who are waking up to this. And I think a lot of it is that a lot of us weren’t taught the whole gospel. I think individual personal salvation so that you can go to heaven was the dominant way that most people in the past 50 years were told about Jesus, so everybody did the prayer, or said yes, or came forward at the altar call, whatever it was, and then discovered that our salvation was in some way incomplete. And by that I don’t mean that – I mean grace is real and you really can trust Jesus – but that salvation is as wide as the cosmos. It’s a reconciliation of all things and that taking water, proper medication for the people in this village, IS the gospel, you cannot ignore the systemic dimension, that would be the best way of putting it. Do you agree?
Absolutely…
RB - I mean a lot of people don’t… You know empires always consume themselves. So you have the latest in electronics, you have the latest in clothing, you have the ability to travel anywhere, if it ultimately is not used on behalf of those others – this goes way back to Abraham, you are blessed in order to spread that blessing, you experience the shalom of God in order to expand and express the shalom of God to others, so I think that empires and kingdoms always turn on themselves and begin to consume themselves and that’s just how it works unless they are focussed outwards in very intentional ways.
Do you think that’s already happening? What kind of signs do you see that show that?
RB - Oh for sure. Well I would say in the UK and US we have more, more, period. Whatever you want. And despair is our national religion. And cynicism is the altar at which people bow down. Would you agree? That the normal response to everything is, it’s a bit lame. It’ll probably let us down. It’s probably not real. And we’re shocked if it actually works out to be remotely real or authentic. So I would always say for many people it has turned in on itself.
What do you think it would look like for the church to be countering this?
RB - One of the things we talk about in our church is that soccer mum on prozac. She has everything, she’s shuffling her kids on to the next practise and games, they go on nice vacations, she drives a really nice car and there’s plenty of food, and in some deep way she’s totally lost. And there’s a certain numbness that kicks in. And we need to get her tutoring downtown. We need to help her find somebody who she will find out who God is by extending herself to them. I think that one of the central ways I understand it is in the Hebrew scriptures you leave the edge of your field for the poor and the widow and the stranger among you. When you beat the olive tree, don’t go back a second time, when you pick the grapes leave some. I am the God who brought you out of Egypt. So you must leave some of your crop so that you will not forget your story. So you will not forget that you have been redeemed as well. And for many people, many Christians have forgotten their own story. And if you do not figure out what it means to leave your olives, to leave your grapes, to leave the corner of your field, do you know what I mean? There is something epic about the telling of the story. In empowering those who have nothing and in sharing with those on the underside of the empire, this is my own story that I’m rescuing. I think it’s very very real. Because otherwise you start to think that your problems are actual problems. And your complaints are actually legitimate. It’s not, in the grand scheme of things. Yeah, I could talk about this all day!
Would you say that, though, even someone who’d lived a wealthy lifestyle but had terrible suffering, their parents had abandoned them or they’d been abused, do you think there’s a still a redemption for them in reaching out to others?
RB - Any sort of deep pain or trauma, there’s always a much-needed personal restoration: grieving properly, proper counsel, a community of people to help you work out the very real scars, so I would begin with the gospel as a very deeply personal reconciliation of your own inner being, that you then are more and more empowered to extend to others. We’re integrated beings, we have emotions and feelings and pasts and futures and anxieties and if the gospel doesn’t work there, then we’re in trouble for the larger issues.
You’ve got a clear picture of the gospel as physical as well as spiritual – is that something you’ve always had?
RB - No. Past five years.
What changed?
RB - I would say parallel tracks of scriptural study and experiences, having had the luxury of travel, and particularly seeing the church in the third world and seeing what the church even is in sub-Saharan Africa, or south America, feeling like I was seeing the church for the first time.
So what did you see?
RB - The world is an emergency, and the church is at the absolute cutting edge, ready before everyone else, quick on its feet, subverting whatever systemic evil was at work there, just seeing a church like, there’s nothing, this is God. And finding God myself among the poor. God IS found among the poor. That’s how it works. And in studying the scriptures this story always veers in a certain direction. I mean he’s born in a manger. How much more do you need? And the story always veers towards those on the underside. There’s something called the preferential option. But the only way you could read the story and not see that as The Theme is if you were so steeped in the empire that you had vested interests in not reading it in that way.
Like in America right now, no wonder people don’t track with the scriptural story, it’s a small group of people who are under the boot of a global military superpower, whether it’s pharaoh, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Romans, so it’s no wonder that if you’re the sole global military superpower flexing your military might around the world that you would have a hard time understanding this book that’s written from the other perspective. No wonder passages get spiritualised and become hyper-esoteric and the interpretations leave a lot of people thinking that makes no sense. Otherwise you actually have to take it for what it’s really saying and now we’re talking about a whole bunch of other things.
Although, is it in Velvet Elvis where you’re saying that taking the bible for what it really says is actually quite a tricky thing to assert, because there are so many possible readings through culture – would you say that there are still some valid readings of scripture coming through from ‘the empire’?
RB - Sure, yeah. Anybody anywhere who is exerting great energy to understand the scriptures, yeah. An example would be the Assyrians made life miserable for the Jewish nation. And the capital of Assyria I believe was Nineveh. So Jonah, forgiving the Ninevites, is probably first and foremost a book to the Jews about how to forgive your worst enemies and even bless them. And it’s probably a lot of stuff going on there beyond individual repentance. Which I would wholeheartedly affirm, but there’s probably a whole lot more going on there, you know what I mean?
Yeah, when you understand the situation around it…
RB - Yeah, I assume the writer of the story was really waving the flag for a number of big issues there, some of the background like, it goes from black and white to colour in some ways. I think I should do some more study on that book. But I digress!
In Tear Times last year Jim Wallis said that the connection between spiritual hunger and social justice was what the world was waiting for – what do you think that looks like?
RB - Well I think the fundamental hungers that people have are for meaning and for community and for task, which goes back to genesis one and two in which God created us to be co-creators and to further shalom, to carry shalom forward, so, I would argue that at the core of most spiritual longing is to find your proper place in the kingdom of shalom, and you can’t when people don’t have enough food. Someone said something along the lines of ‘your greatest passion and the world’s greatest need – when those two meet, that’s your calling, and ultimate purposes for humanity are not… and then ‘When you are you, then we can be we’, a great African phrase, so yeah, I think that we have lots of people who come to our church and they get plugged into some form of mission and then begin to find God in very real ways. But to present people with a gospel that’s all about Jesus just wants to save you – I mean the original call in exodus 19 is for a kingdom of priests – and the priest mediates the divine, so the call is never just to leave Egypt – we talked about this at Tearfund – the call is to leave Egypt and to be a certain kind of presence the world. So when you say hey, we’re out of Egypt, isn’t that great, you’re saved – as Paul says in Ephesians 2, mizboh – you’re saved to do good deeds, to repair and restore the world. So yeah, he’s right on. Couldn’t agree more!
How do you pray? How has your prayer life changed over the years you’ve been leading the church, and thinking about these issues?
RB - Erm. I think I pray more. And I do not see prayer as detached from how the world really is. I’m far more aware of how many prayers we are the answer to. Asking God to feed people who are hungry when I have enough food doesn’t seem right. So I’m much more aware of what we can actually do in the world. I have a much higher view of humanity, and at the same time I have much more desperation for God’s help. When you’re really confronted with how the world is, it’s a brutally humiliating humbling ‘well I am small’ and if God isn’t present healing and moving then nothing’s going to happen here, so I have much more confidence in God and a much higher view of humanity. Yes.
And how do you keep your passion and enthusiasm alive?
RB - Well I keep strong boundaries, I don’t work all the time, and I have very regular rhythms through out the day, the week, the month, of work and play because otherwise I won’t have anything to say. I mean I’ll just be drained, I’ve experienced that before, just being totally drained. So my wife and I are very keen to be tuned in to our own rhythms and what’s too much and what’s not a good balance and what’s not sustainable. I mean that’s the key thing – we’re often asking ‘is this sustainable’? I would like to do this for the next 50 years. Beyond the rhythms and lots of sleep and lots of play, I’m interested in what God is up to, so I do not concern myself with what the Pharisees are saying because that’s not interesting. That isn’t where the most fresh, new movements of God are surging forward. So I throw my energies in there.
Where do you think those are at the moment – anything particular you’ve seen or heard about?
RB - Oh yeah. I think there’s something new that transcends the standard ways Christians have divided themselves over the years. And with that I would also include protestant/catholic divisions. If you are actually following Jesus and doing what Jesus said to do, I see a faith that transcends the many many ways that Christians have found to divide themselves. You’re passionate about this cause? I’m passionate about it? We’re both passionate because we’re followers of Jesus? Let’s go. You’re taking communion? I’m taking communion? We both believe that in some way Christ’s body broken and blood poured out IS the healing of the world? Then let’s take communion together. Do you believe that there’s one true God who’s beyond gender or even language and yet this God is somehow at work in humanity and we can both sing to this God? I think there’s something huge going on there. And some of the exceedingly small and sometimes downright trivial ways in which Christians have drawn big fences around themselves and others are coming down in the face of three billion people living on less than $2 a day. That’s not helping.
Do you think that’s the thing then? People looking at the massive gap between rich and poor and this could bring the church together in a new way?
RB - You actually start – it’s an invitation to BE the church. Because much of what passes for church just has nothing to do with, I mean sometimes it’s just sociological realities with a steeple, I mean it’s just a particular demographic of people with the same political beliefs, same economic standing, and same educational outlook gathering for a wonderful social time and there’s a veneer across the front. And this has something remotely to do with God Jesus and the Bible. As opposed to being the hands and feet that are so present and real that people say ‘all I know about that community is that Christ is present there and I cannot deny that. It is unquestionably good and it cannot be denied.’ And that’s just exciting, so exciting.
Do you think you’re seeing that take shape in your church?
RB - Oh yeah. I’ve just been with Steve Chalke and the people from Oasis and the schools that they are starting in the most dangerous, under-resourced neighbourhoods – just stunning. And the church communities that are working to get everybody in their church out of debt – out of credit card debt – churches that are all gathering to raise X number of dollars to meet every need in Africa/Asia – fabulous. Very inspiring. And as more and more people realise that we can change things, and that our authority, that the Christian story has authority, these deeds are authoriatitve deeds. Like nobody can argue with that. Really. Yes. These are good questions! Man! I’m thinking about that!
I wonder what you think about HIV and AIDS – sometimes in your books you’ve used it as an example, you’ve met people in Rwanda with AIDS – and as Tearfund it’s something we’re very passionate about – we’ve got this big vision to see lots of churches stop the spread of HIV – but what do you think Christians have to offer the crisis of AIDS?
RB - Well in my experience its generally a lethal convergence of economics, sexuality and cultural perceptions and practices surrounding sexuality, politics and ultimately power – power in male dominated societies, the powerlessness of women to speak up or speak out, and then cultural taboos involving disease, weakness, so in my experience it’s a black hole – it’s the perfect storm of issues – perfect storm being a very negative term. So when people say well it’s all about getting people not to have unprotected sex, well, when she does tell him that’s an insult to him and she gets beaten, so what the church first and foremost can do – I mean the story of the scriptures is the story of incarnation, and in my travels, seeing the church in a culture with massive HIV rates, seeing the church joining people in the midst of this very confusing thing and just working – we call it a redemptive movement one click at a time.
I was with a woman whose organisation in Kenya, I believe, puts out brochures on just the basics of sexuality in a language people understand, she was showing a chart, just the actual quantifiable measurable results when we pass out this many brochures, rates go down. So we get the money, we make the brochures, rates go down. Not hard! (laughs)
RB - And then, removing the stigma through lots of public education so that it’s actually something people say, they can have the words HIV or AIDS on their lips and not suffer the massive stigma. I’ve seen in very real ways that people are battling it.
There’s a danger I suppose with Christians coming along and saying well this is our message on sexuality, and that being very different to – I mean even in the west that’s very different to where people are actually at.
RB - I would argue that authority is always earned. Earned or given. And to ever say ‘here’s a Christian perspective on sexuality’... A friend of mine is African and a well-known, well-resourced Christian came over to ‘deal with the AIDS issue’. And he had a gathering of all these Africans and said, ‘The problem with you people is you have too much sex with too many people. If you could just have sex with your spouse, you wouldn’t have this problem.’ And my African friend said, it’s like all the wind got sucked out of the room and people got up and started walking out. He said that person has no voice. Just, gone. So I think the right to say ‘Here’s what we would see as a more dignifying, human-honouring sexual ethic’ is a right that must be earned. Through listening, serving, being present in the midst of, because nobody wants to be preached at. And if it is good news, if it is a higher moral, if it does make things better, people will see that. So I think your question probably is more about colonialism and imperialism and at Mars Hill, we kind of think about it in four stages: there’s the desire to change the world, but the second step is always what situation are we in, what is this culture, what are the blind spots I may have coming in, sensitivity, and humility and a servants perspective before you can ever get to what we would say third would be, actual capacities. It’s one thing to want to change the world, it’s another to enter in with the proper cultural sensitivity and it’s another to have the actual hard skills – I can do something. Which would lead to number four which we would say would be measurable change. And if you miss out one along the line… it doesn’t work. I think that was your question.
Agent: Have you got one last question?
Us: One question? I’ve got another page…
Rob: Who’s next? Inspire magazine? And they’re at what time? OK. We’ll wrap it up here. Just give us a couple of minutes. We’ll wrap it up.
Us: How to choose…
Rob: (reading) What…keeps…your… passion for God alive…
Us: I’ve asked you that one…
OK maybe one thing we haven’t touched on, I loved in your book where you said putting the word ‘marketing’ and ‘church’ in the same sentence makes you sick (Rob laughs) But then at the same time obviously a lot of what you’re doing in relating to culture and getting your message across is, well it’s sort of marketing, isn’t it? How do you reconcile the idea of getting as big an audience as possible with kind of not marketing. See what I mean? That’s a problem we have as Tearfund because we want to be authentic but at the same time we have to get a response from people…
(really long pause)
I can ask a different last question?
RB - No, no, it’s a great question. Excellent question. Erm…Well I suppose first off I’m doing what I love. And, like when we design the art for my books, like what it even feels like and looks like, we design things we like. And we make films we like. And that mean something to us. So there is no demographic. There is no target audience. We’ve never done like a survey to try to find out what people like. We make what we like and I give messages that have done something to me, and I think ‘I ought to share this. I think this is worth sharing. This worked for me and I thinking it might help some others.’ So I think marketing is trying to manufacture a certain element of something that does or doesn’t exist – as opposed to letting people know what you’re really up to. And trusting that when people engage with what you’re really doing they’ll tell their friends. How’s that? Is that good? Was that a good one? Does that give you plenty?
Do you want to see what I write?
RB - Sure – or you can just do it. I trust you. It’ll be great. Hey, you’re Tearfund! You guys are awesome. Great talking to you. You guys, I’m a big fan of Tearfund. So I’d keep chatting but I have to go check something – thank you!